Session Start (sendak.openprojects.net:#egoboo): Thu Aug 15 17:50:21 2002 *** Now talking in #egoboo. *** Users on #egoboo: booger @RobJC *** End of /NAMES list. *** Mode for channel #egoboo is "+n" *** Channel #egoboo was created at Thu Aug 15 16:43:26 2002 *** Join to #egoboo completed in 0 seconds. heya hey, looks like I wasn't the only one to show up early. what time does this thing start *** RobJC is now known as Ronus Whenever people start showing up. what time are people supposed to show up ;) in three or four more hours eek, i gotta be in bed by then BTW, is Ben still on the project? did you have something you wanted to discuss? Which Ben? Ben Bishop? yeah He's not really a part of the project anymore, but he still lurks in the background. iv been lurking about the project, but im not sure if its something i wanna get involved with it seems to have alot going for it but on the other hand it seems like there are some rudimentary design decisions still left to be made esp in regards to networking and the like True, it's been sitting in a state of stasis for a few years, with people talking about adding new features and different opinions on what is and isn't important. That's why these IRC meetings are important. To try and get communication flowing, work toward a clear vision of what we want. booger: its my opinion that egoboo should try to be a multiplayer nethack clone with a little nod to gauntlet, and with the infastructure to expand out into a larger game but thats just my opinion I mostly agree. I think our initial focus should be on single player though, then expand functionality to multiplayer. I don't want to be a direct nethack clone though. booger: id say multiplayer needs to go in from the start, lest it never get done Do you know any network programmers who are willing to help us implement that? I might be willing to lend a hand on the server side but I dont wanna touch client side with a ten foot pole but at this point its probably better just to fix what is already lying underneath *** Pink (Pink@h24-67-162-239.ok.shawcable.net) has joined channel #egoboo hey all I just want to see the random map implementation integrated into the core gamplay at this point. That would make me ecstatic with joy. hey Pink ya, that would be good thats what makes nethack fun Multiplayer would be good, and we're keeping that in mind for the future. It's too big of a task for the amount of programmers we have at the moment. We need someone dedicated to network code. booger: better to bite the bullet now whos ronus? newbie lol been lurking for a while we just need more people e.g., the modeller isnt hard to use once you get it all written its gonna be hard to retroactively add in network support not if we plan for it as we go. Pink: I think modelling shouldnt even be on the agenda until the engine is closer to stable fair enough *** NinthDevilofKimo (TheRictus@68.112.4.134) has joined channel #egoboo and the feature set should probably be finalized "soon" TheRictus I am hey * NinthDevilofKimo waves and the vision(TM) pretty much hammered out Still, if we have modelers lurking who have nothing to do, it wouldn't hurt for them to start cranking out some models. *** NinthDevilofKimo is now known as Ninthdevilofkimo it wont add the last n? booger: assign them wearable armour, that ought to keep the busy ;) exactly (skins only go so far you know) it doesnt hurt to have people making models anyway i think i made a post about that lol, I'd rather see them build a huge supply of creatures, so you're always encountering new things in the game. Pink: that would be one advantage of cloning nethack the armour system right now is pretty crappy Nice and easy to figure out what models/skins are needed and once you have that then you can go back and figure out what animations are needed and what attachment vertices are needed for each model and then you can say "modeling is 42% done" would it be possibe to make armour a 3d model that was visible on the chara? well.... it's not too hard to make a few models for the armor and have the only difference between different types of "armor" "robes" "Shirts" "sashes" whatever is the skin and stuff Having armor as models presents a whole new slew of coding problems. Assigning grips/attach points. which is quite an accomplishment from saying "were still deciding on our world" that way more combos would be possible Pink: its certainly possible, but it means your models have to be pretty similar in shape or you have to remodel all the armour in different sizes People already have a hard enough time figuring out the two grips that are already present. lol so, are we planning to do anything with the armour system 9now or later) why not save that for the end booger: id say better to bite the bullet, it also enables you to do other things as well anyways booger: aka tails and the like for curses I think we can expand the armor system to a larger number of skins. booger: mdl armour is where its at though just more work Ronus: we've been biting the bullet for the past three years, it's time to start implementing some stuff. but that also means making more skins and icons... skins are easy to make. but it doesnt really allow for generic armours (or does it) e.g. leather armour that can be worn by several classes why not code different ways to use items first.... I meen the whole swing stab or whatever leaves the useage of items as little more than killing and healing You don't see the armor on the ground anyway, it's inside the chest. y cant it be on the ground? Pink: no model It could be on the ground, but at present it isn't. i mean, if we made armour mdl files then they could be on the ground Pink: not really no? Why not? why not? armour could be treated as an item I just think it might look a bit odd it can be cursed, dropped, blah blah blah That all depends on how the model looks. we could have 2 diff models, one for dropped and one for bieng worn well.... I meen wouldnt you have to make a whole inventory screen for that.... how would you equip it? like the shoes? that makes it take up the already too small space you can hold now right Ninthdevilofkimo: Ultima online/everquest/diablo style paper-doll what if it, pormpted you or something? like, pressing R makes u remove armour Anyway, the time for feature creep is past. Let's not start adding more and more features, such as modeled armor that can be worn. it would say remove leather armour? y/n I would think it would be handled in much the same way as the bracelets are. We are planning on revamping the inventory system though. so your gonna make an inventory screen for it* what do you mean the feature creep? honestly, i dont find egoboo having a mad amount of features... it seems like there is no clear plan for exaclty how the game plays out so you really cant know what features will be needed we need to be a little more organized feature creep is the practice of adding more and more features until you have so many features that the game never gets finished. thats true ah yup thats also true i still think its important tho The programmers are already overwhelmed with the amount of new things they need to implement. Let's not pile their workload even higher. so why not keep it similar.... only thing I see it needs is a different way of carrying stuff and more "different" kinds of items booger: well itseems like noone knows what the finished egoboo should look like what are they currently working on? (random lvl design, multi, what else? its not that no one knows, we just all have our own idea of it... frontend code, LUA script implementation, character creation screen... have you been reading the past IRC transcripts? I thought LUA script was pretty much done actually no ok, fair enuf Nobody knows what the finished product looks like because newbies keep popping up with new ideas and then demanding that these features get implemented. ninja dress... It's hard to stay focused when you don't have a solid core design team. im not saying you need to choose my ideas, just saying you need to choose any ideas Why not just focus on the ideas that we already have? it is an open source game, after all and those ideas are thats alright but you need to get something down in writing saying exactly where egoboo is heading for the next release and then list what needs to be done to get there exactly! organization ie. A decision as to weather multi is going in the next release should be made Soon(TM) booger does this, i do that, ricter finishes that, when we are done, we release it didn't I already state that multiplayer wouldn't be in the next release? i dont think it should be we are already pretty busy as it is The extent of the LUA script bindings need to be clarified well of course not no need to go overboard I meen shouldnt that be the last thing made if they arent finished, although I thought they were Ninthdevilofkimo: I would say no there because your ai, game physics, etc all have to be reviewed when you add in multi Ronus, have you read Elmin's papers on the LUA script implementation? booger: nope, url? It's on the sourceforge project site. and we reviewed the impact of multiplayer on ai, game physics etc two IRC meetings ago. lets just try to finish what needs to be done and release another version random lvl, LUA, and egomap (maybe more, thats my opinoin) Pink: Shouldnt random generation be done by LUA? It is. The random generator is powered by LUA script. well there u go any particular reason egomap couldnt be ditched for OLC? OLC? olc? online creation what's that We just got finished ditching Cartman for Egomap, now we should ditch Egomap? Ninthdevilofkimo: where an administrator can edit the game layout from inside the game booger: perhaps just because it was hard work dosent mean its still worth the trouble of maintaining it seems like if your going to have all the needed mechanics to alter level geometry on the fly with the map generator, you might as well use it to manage static content as well The map generator is a shared library with Egomap and the core game. I'm not sure I get where you're coming from. so its not actually generating the maps on the fly? nope(?) It's generating the maps as you load levels. Much like a roguelike will create a new random map when you enter a stairway. It isn't a dynamic system that changes the map while you are in a level. ahh well.... I dont like the thought of random maps unless it's implemented as part of the game.... like certain dungeons changing each time you enter either way would achieve that it takes away some of the creativity of map making You can still create maps manualy. How does it take away the creativity of map making? well if you can just press a button and it makes the basics of the map..... randomly though if you wanted to be creavtive you could still make your own, your way ...when is random map generation going to be used in the game? I know but... i mean, there are no stairs, its all module driven Stairs will be implemented. premade modules ok then still though, this isnt like nethack we just need more people making maps as far as modules go anyway... well Cartman is kinda a bother and egomap doesnt work on my system..... I am speaking with Fabian about it..... I might be making maps soon if we switch it to like a world map thing then random generation would be better egomap is good, it just needs some work Egomap is still in development. and it doesnt work on my system ewither the font is all screwed well it kinda works but it's always flashing and I cant see what I am doing in the menus I can still use it it's just hard it needs some work, but if it worked really good we could get more maps (thanx for stating the obvoius there, pink) lol id like that stricken fromn the transcripts please.... no,no... that's a great quote. lol well while we are waiting what kind of levels we need ice palace dungeons towns moutain ones would be cool but impossible... is there any paralaxed floors so it would look like you are high up? brb back You could always make some cloud overlays, and then make the level really tall. it also depends on what the game looks like I don't think there's any paralaxing tho. *nods* randomly generating a mountain scene like that could be difficult though well that seems like it wouldnt be too hard.... paralaxing has been around since before doom why would it be difficult? i just thoguht id be cool I think it would be hard to make a level that would be fun to play thats all could someone explain what in the hell paralaxing is? paralaxing was around back in 2d platform games, it was a method of faking 3d effects. why do you need to fake it when you have real 3d? lol well..... well actually you get a static skybox is what you do makes it seem like its really far away well why not paralaxing is a method where you move a 2d plane behind another to fake perspective. thanx like wolfenstien, etc... isnt it still being used anyways? I meen in a more advanced form..... cuz you cant exactly render the bottum of a mountain how bout u start at the base of a trail and it like, winds and goes up yep, winds and goes up....... I think we could manage to fake a mountain well enough. ill just listen for awhile.... can the system handle that heighth tho I meen I'm new here I dont know what this system can and cant do give the hardware another three years ;) can it go like 50 people high? and will it scroll with it It depends on what you want in height. If you're talking about a cliff face that extends 500 feet down the side of a mountain, then no. But you don't find that in real life either. how bout like in FF3? I thought that was 2 all they did for mountain terrians was has lots of plateus maybe, i havent played 2 in a while but im sure 3 has it anyway they had it in 2 as well yeah and a paralaxed ground off the mountain Where you went up as Cecil with Palum & Porum and fought yourself at the top yes no like when your on um, that mountian and you meet the fighting guy and he can do the combo thingies DAMNIT! i cant remeber... like when your on the mountain before you go inside and fight yourself oh! actually ya Regardless, we can find a way to do believable mountains with the current engine. i remeber that now just plateus with steep cliffs on the side of the traitls am I the only one who still remembers classic rpgs and 1x1 ramp tiles to connect diff hiegths i dont know if we can do that but... i havent played any classic rpgs in awhile... anyways it's a simple Idea doable yeah okay so we got one thing figured out lol anyway, I'm afk for a bit. I had some stuff to do before the meeting started (y'all caught me off guard by being here so early). hardly okies i didnt even know when it started I was told that it was up now..... so I came here to discuss well i should go anyways as I was saying before it's best to keep something like this simple get back to reality :s s olong all so it doesnt turn into eb64 or something *** Pink has left #egoboo hello? well I guess I'll keep talking for the IRC log I personally think that we really need a better item system, some simple graphic things for levels and different ways to use items the features the way they are are okay..... I like the attachable armor thing but I dont see why it's really needed in other words it would be nice but if its too hard then it's not needed camera angles and more classes would be great too I think the paladin should not be able to heal (only able to kill the undead perminately) well there's no reason for me to stick around since noone seems to be talking bye *** Signoff: Ninthdevilofkimo ("(I was using $null) Version: 2.04. Wasted: 1 Hour 10 Minutes and 2 Seconds Online.") *** Signoff: Ronus (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Session Close (�� ): Thu Aug 15 20:31:13 2002 Session Start (sendak.openprojects.net:#egoboo): Thu Aug 15 20:31:24 2002 *** Now talking in #egoboo. *** Mode change "+n" for channel #egoboo by sendak.openprojects.net *** Users on #egoboo: @booger *** End of /NAMES list. *** Mode for channel #egoboo is "+n" *** Channel #egoboo was created at Thu Aug 15 20:37:35 2002 *** Join to #egoboo completed in 1 seconds. *** bitnapper (bitnapper@dialin-client-62-2-129-252.hispeed.ch) has joined channel #egoboo Hi, just getting up, I'm back in a few minutes. good morning What are todays topics? I thought we'd discuss design issues, such as inventory system and character attributes. Possibly food and revamping the armor system. There were a bunch of newbies on earlier, they seemed to have some ideas about what would be important. You can read it in the log later. One of them seemed to think it was really important to implement multiplayer as soon as possible. Network or on same machine? and there was the suggestion of having modeled armor. network I have some idea in mind about modeled armor. If the armor is always on the same place in the texture, it can be changed in the texture while runtime (as picture instead of models). the problem I see with modeled armor is that the characters will have to retain the same basic dimensions in order for the armor to fit right. brb I agree. Brb? If you render it to the characters texture, the size doesn't matter. Beside that, if armors are models, we have to add some vertices where to attach the armor. I'm back. exactly my point. We're having enough problems with two grips. Imagine all the trouble we'll have if we have to have a grip for every potential piece of armor. Not only that, but what if you have a character with a small head and large chest, the helmet would look too big and the breastplate would clip right through the sternum. Did you get the point what I mean changing the texture at runtime? And don't even get started thinking about potential non-human characters, such as centaur. The armor would just be a texture, right. The allowed usage could be done by definition of the armors properties E. g. in quake, the face is always on the left bottom of the texture and has the same size, so you can change it easily. Mabye I write some example code. I'm with you on that, the texture would be dynamic. So you could change into a variety of armor in game. I think that's a great idea. I think there should be more levels of armor class as well. 4 different levels of armor isn't very much. Makes it look more interesting. Beside that, every character only has to have a single basic texture. I agree with the possibility having more the four armors. their naked skin (with underwear on, or something) or, hell, naked but without genitals. Right. I think, a template is needed. kind of like a barbie doll. Yes. the current characters tend to follow a similar pattern, it shouldn't be too hard to work something out. Something like in "the Sims": The basic stays the same. under the template system, what do you do about accessories? Such as the healer's headress, or the tourist's hat? That's a problem: These are characters basics, I think, and never change. BTW: You can have more types of armor by definitions of properties - from the gameplays point of view. you mean like 'armor of fire protection' or some such? Yes. There's a difference between the properties in game and how it's displayed. I thought to have the icons for the items to be precise. you would need some way to indicate to the player that they are wearing ahhhhh.... using icons btw, brb stands for Be Right Back brb In the inventory. "Eyee of the Beholder" handlesd it like that. There were about 120 icons which showed up if you put the item in the inventory. For disply in the dungeon there only used about thirty pictures - just the basic. E. g. a sword for all types of sword. which brings us to the inventory system In the inventory systems I know, you put the armor onto chest in it. You have fields for armor, weapons, shoes, helmet, bracelets and rings. As well as some places for the backpack. There are some problems inherent with the current inventory system. we could use the 'paper doll' system, which it sounds like you're describing. we could also use an inventory ring system. You have one for every hand to cicle through. And armores are weared automatically. in any case, you should be able to pick something up and have it go directly to your inventory without having to wield it. yeah, one circle for each hand, armor worn automatically. Should it be picked up automatically like in nethack? To inventory? I think it should, though that could be optional. the inventory should also be larger. half the fun of dungeon crawling is bringing a huge load of treasure back to town. actually, there should just be one circle with each hand having access to it. Then there should the grap command put the item into inventorys abckpack instead of getting it int hand? yeah there are other methods we could consider for handling inventory though. Usually in RPG's you can only have more then one item ready for the main hand. such as switching between a bow and sword? Yes. we could pattern the inventory system after roguelikes, where there's an inventory list and then an equipment list. But, in othere RPG's you have to have arrows in the second hand to use the bow. Not in all RPG's. Angband only requires you have arrows in your backpack. That's right. And you can still use the second hand? I think it's defined as a two handed weapon. In modern games, such as Diablo or Dungeon Siege, it's a two handed weapon. In older roguelikes, I thought, two handed weapons just meant that you couldn't carry a shield. he system to implement depends on how much action part we want to have. If we go for moreaction based, like "Messiah" we can't use the same solution like if we I think action is important, considering this is a realtime game, as opposed to turn based. go more towards RPG style. If there are places to rest in the game, then you have always time to mess with the true, but you can't mess with stuff on the fly in the middle of a heated battle. inventory in a separate screen, readying for the next fight. But, for role palying, this is hard in a hot battle anyway. YOu have to prepare and then go to battle. true, it's a balancing act though. How much action vs roleplaying do we want. Personally, I see Egoboo as a cross between Diablo and Gauntlet in terms of action. If too much has to be handled by keys, it might become complicated for two ppl playing on the same machine. Diablo as a kind of inventory with the "Paper Doll" How do you pick up items in diablo? well, we already have keys for inventory use. we could just figure a way to use the same keys for inventory selection. I don't really like the paper doll method, personally. Let me meditate on it for a minute. I'm gonna step outside for a smoke. You pick up items in Diablo by clicking on them. brb That's hard to implement, if one player uses keyboard only. How about the possibility to exchange tiems between players? Just drop the item on the ground and the other player picks it up. And get another item from inventory into hand? Sure, whatever they want. hmmm.... for inventory functionality, you should be able to drop items from inventory to the ground directly or wield them. How about this: For not having the "Paper Doll" style, the program may automatically wear the best